Posts
All excellent points. Your instructor is a thoughtful and insightful
person. Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Hugh Sontag
>"The danger of this
>maneuver is not keeping enough airspeed, and stalling in a steep bank."
>
>Absolutely. The only real way to mitigate this danger is to practice the
>maneuver when you're not under pressure.
>
>I had it pounded into my head by my CFI to select & turn towards my
>landing point (wherever it may be) first before pitching for best glide.
>The amount of time&altitude you lose going in the wrong direction is
>more than the amount you lose by not being at best glide during the
>turn. He said he'd seen too many students spend 20-30 seconds trying to
>get the trim set to *exactly* 73 kts (instead of, say, 70 or 75) while
>flying merrily away from a safe landing site. You tend to get a little
>tunnel vision during stress and you don't want to be focusing on the
>wrong thing at the wrong time.
>
>If you have altitude, you don't have to yank it over into a 60 degree
>bank, but make the turn immediately just the same. I know some CFIs
>teach the right-left-right maneuver for alignment, but we practiced it
>once on a simulated departure engine failure and it's shocking how much
>farther away from the airport you end up.
>
>Hugh Sontag wrote:
>>
>>
>> I like your plan. I think I'll try it at altitude. The danger of this
>> maneuver is not keeping enough airspeed, and stalling in a steep bank.
>>
>> The 45-degree turn away is to set up so that the airplane will be
>> lined up with the runway when the maneuver is completed. Your comment
>> on "just get turned around, quickly" is a good point - the sooner you
>> get turned around, the less distance you've traveled from the runway.
>>
>> I'm sure that the teardrop is more commonly recommended is because
>> it's much less likely to result in a stall/spin accident, which is a
>> real concern for a pilot inexperienced in the more aggressive
>> maneuver you've described.
>>
>> Hugh Sontag
>>
>> >I have executed power-off 180-degree turns in 300 ft of altitude loss
>> >(practiced at altitude, of course.) I don't think I'd actually try to
>> >return with less than 500 ft. I've had 2 engine outs - one on departure
>> >at about 700 ft (returned to runway) and one at altitude. My procedure
>> >on the departure engine out wasn't fancy - nose down HARD, turn HARD,
>> >and then reassess. I'd guess my nose-down attitude was at least 30
>> >degrees and my bank was around 60. The windscreen was full of ground
>> >during the maneuver. I had runway overrun directly under me at the time
>> >(5000+ ft runway, sea level departure) so I knew if I could 180, I'd
>> >have a landing spot - there would be no need to "stretch" back to the
>> >airport.
>> >
>> >I don't know why you'd start with a 45-degree turn *away* from the
>> >direction you want to turn. That seems like a significant waste of time
>> >to me - and you're continuing to head away from the airport during that
>> >first turn. Every second you're in the air you're falling. So you may
>> >not be perfectly lined up with the runway when you return - would you
>> >rather be perfectly lined up with trees short of the runway? I would
>> >recommend a 210 degree turn immediately, adjusted at the end as required
>> >to point directly at your planned landing spot. Do the final course
>> >correction *after* you have the spot made.
>> >
>> >Any time I've watched others practice the maneuver, it seems to me they
>> >always fail to use a steep enough bank. People confuse two needs: the
>> >need to turn 180 degrees, and the need to conserve as much time as
>> >possible. The need to conserve time leads them to glide at or under best
>> >glide even when turning, which limits the amount of bank you can use -
>> >you're too close to stall - and so the 180 degree turn takes too long.
>> >GET THE NOSE DOWN, get the plane turned FAST, and then go to best glide.
>> >You will spend less time turning, and thus have less altitude loss
>> >during the turn.
> > >
>> >That's my .01 cents, yours may differ.
>> >
>> >Hugh Sontag wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Just curious... do you think that a return to the takeoff runway can
>> >> be done with less than 600 feet AGL, or that the altitude loss will
>> >> be more than 600 feet?
>> >>
>> >> I suggest that this should be practiced in your airplane. Start at
>> >> 2000' AGL and find out where you're at when you're back where you
>> >> started, using your GPS as a reference.
>> >>
>> >> When I did this in my Tornado II, I found that the altitude lost was
>> >> 700 feet. The "return to takeoff runway", for me, starts with a
>> >> 45-degree turn in one direction, then a 180-degree turn in the other
>> >> direction, then 45 degrees back to the centerline of the takeoff
>> >> runway.
>> >>
>> >> The really bad problem with trying to do this for the first time when
>> >> the engine is permanently silent is that if things aren't going well,
>> >> the tendency is to try to "stretch" the glide by raising the nose.
>> >> Eventually, the airplane stalls, which is the worst possible
>> >> situation.
>> >>
>> >> Better to establish ahead of time what is reasonable for your
>> >> airplane. If you don't have enough altitude above the ground, don't
>> >> even think of returning to the runway. You've already proven it can't
>> >> be done.
>> >>
>> >> Hugh Sontag
>> >>
>> >> >I don't buy in to the 600 ft number, but the admonition to keep
>> the plane
>> >> >flying is right on.
>> >> >
>> >> >If you stall close to the ground, that's when you die.
>> >> >
>> > > >I've never had an outright engine failure, but I've had engines get
>> >> sick a
>> >> >couple of times.
>> >> >
>> >> >ALWAYS know where you're going to land, if the engine quits. ALWAYS.
>> >> >
>> >> >TCS
>> >> >
>> >> >Terry C Savage
>> >> >
>> >> >Senior Information Technology Manager
>> >> >
>> >> >Science Fiction Author, The End of Winter
>> >> >
>> >> ><<<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>> >> ><<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
> >
><<http://tinyurl.
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>>
>><<http://tinyurl.
>> >> >
>> >> ><<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >>
>><<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >> >
>> >> ><<<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >>
>> >><<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >>
>><<<http://tcsendofwint
>>
>><<http://tcsendofwint
>> <<http://tcsendofwint
>> >> >
>> >> >===========
>> >> >
>> >> >_____
>> >> >
>> >> >From:
>> >>
>> ><mailto:Titanaircr
>> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >>
>> >[mailto:<mailto:
>> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >> >On Behalf Of Hugh Sontag
>> >> >Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 7:14 PM
>> >> >To:
>> >>
>> >><mailto:Titanairc
>> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >> <mailto:Titanaircra
>> >> >Subject: [Titanaircraft] Re: Fly the airplane
>> >> >
>> >> >An airplane "nose dives" when it stalls.
>> >> >
>> >> >When I've practiced a sudden loss of engine power, I don't find that
>> >> >the airplane is hard to get into a 60 mph glide.
>> >> >
>> >> >You do need to react, by moving the stick forward, but it's not hard,
> > >> >if you're convinced that it's the right thing to do.
>> >> >
>> >> >I think that in an engine-out situation, you have to know that the
>> >> >only thing that will work is to keep your airspeed at best glide. If
>> >> >you try to "stretch" the glide and let the airspeed bleed away, the
>> >> >airplane will stall.
>> >> >
>> >> >If the airplane stalls, and you're close to the ground, you have no
>> >> >options. There isn't enough altitude to recover flying speed, so the
>> >> >airplane "noses over" and plummets to the ground.
>> >> >
>> >> >So it's crucial to keep the airplane flying, right back down to the
>> >> >ground, even if you don't like where you're going to have to land it.
>> >> >Better to have control as you approach the ground. Better to put it
>> >> >between two trees than let it fall from the sky.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's what the phrase "fly the airplane" is all about. Maintain
>> >> >flying speed, keep control of the airplane. Don't even try to turn
>> >> >back to the runway if you're 600 feet or less, it can't be done.
>> >> >You'll survive a controlled landing onto a poor surface, but you
>> >> >won't survive a stall at 100 feet or more.
>> >> >
>> >> >Hugh Sontag
>> >> >
>> >> >>If this is true it is very concerning, how can an airplane exibit
>> >> >>these flight characteristics of rolling over with an engine failure
>> >> >>and then nose diving. I know the pusher configuration naturally
>> >> >>pushes the nose forward at wot and the nose will pop up when the
>> >> >>throttle is pulled back, but the roll over and nose dive? Did the
>> >> >>nose pop up so hard that his angle of attack put him in a stall with
>> >> >>a low climb out speed?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>--- In
>> > > >><mailto:Titanairc
>> >> ><mailto:Titanaircr
>> >> >>"rico11b" <rico11b@...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi everyone,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I was a friend of Shannon's. I joined your group this morning to
>> >> >>>post about his passing, but Daleandee beat me to it. Thanks
>> >> >>>Daleeandee, for getting the word out. I hate this too.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The wake will be held Monday night from 7pm to 9pm, and the
>> >> >>>funeral will be Tuesday at 2 pm. It's at a Babtist church somewhere
>> >> >>>in Whiteville NC, but I'm not sure of the address at the moment.
>> >> >>>Once I know I'll post it, if anyone is interested.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> We still don't have all the details about what happened, but thus
>> >> >>>far is looks like the engine failed just after takeoff. After that
>> >> >>>I'm told the plane nosed up and quickly rolled over, and hit nose
>> >> >>>first from 300 feet or so. I'm still trying to learn more about
>> >> >>>what happened so this may change some, but that's the latest as I
>> >> >>>understand it. I'm sorry this had to be my first post to your group.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> R
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --- In
>> >> >>><mailto:Titanair
>> >> ><mailto:Titanaircr
>> >> >>>"daleandee" <daleandee@> wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I hate to share such extremely sad news ...
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >>
>> >>><<<<http://www.whitevil>http://www.whitevil><http://www.whitevil>http://www.whitevil><<http://www.whitevil>http://www.whitevil><http://www.whitevil>http://www.whitevil
>> >>
>> ><<<<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>> >>
>> >><<<http://www.whitevil
> >
><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>> >>
>> >><<<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>> >> >5.txt>
>> >>
>> >le.com/articles/
>> >> >tevil
>> >>
>> ><<<<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>> >>
>> >><<<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
>> >>
>> >><<<http://www.whitevil
>>
>><<http://www.whitevil
> >
><<http://www.whitevil
>> >> >5.txt> le.com/articles/
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Please keep this family in your prayers ...
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >> > > Dale
>> >> >
>> >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
No comments:
Post a Comment